Christians Together : The Rapture Question

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	Editor	14/07/2024 09:41
SB has commented - >>>> I have watched the video about the rapture on your site, where individual verses are taken from various passages to 'prove' a pre-trib rapture. Derek Prince described the importance of the Mount Olivet discourse of Matthew 24,35 like this.... ============ Interpreting prophecy is like putting together the pieces of a human skeleton. If we want to do it successfully, we have to start with the right piece - and the right piece is the spine. When we get the spine in place, we can begin to fit the other members onto it. The spine is Jesus' discourse on the Mount of Olives, recorded in Matthew chs. 24 & 25. Sometimes we tend to overlook the fact that Jesus was a prophet. He was the greatest of all the great Hebrew prophets and His greatest discourse is found in these two chapters. ============= If we ignore the 'spine' of Matthew 24,25, as the gentleman on the video did, we will end up with a very strange looking 'creature' that is more fantasy than fact, rather like an evolutionary paleontologist does in his efforts to 'prove' evolution from individual bones. We must contend for the authority and authenticity of the words of Jesus when He told the disciples they would go through tribulation on the way to Jesus' return. Matthew 24:9 (NKJV) and 21-31. The principle error is believing the tribulation is a time of God's wrath, rather than a sifting and testing time for the church. It is in fact more a time of the wrath of Satan as described in Revelation 12:12. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time And in Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. <<<<<<
	Editor	14/07/2024 09:44
ES has commented "To add to the mix" - https://youtu.be/qO12TQ3qAY4?si=09sfo24mmVoKD6AH
	Jenny Yates	17/07/2024 16:06
Andrew began by saying that the idea of a pre-trib ‘rapture’ did not originate with J.N.Darby in the mid-19th century, but was taught by some early church ‘fathers’ (ECF). However, Dr S.A.Boreland, who promotes the pre-trib view so is a ‘hostile witness,’ admits in his book Some Golden Daybreak that there is only ONE unambiguous statement to that effect, by an ECF - by a Syrian named Ephraem, dated c. A.D. 373, by which time plenty of heresies had arisen – including that God had rejected Israel! - so it carries little weight. Andrew quoted Irenaeus, but completely misrepresented what he wrote. This was: “And therefore, when in the end the Church shall suddenly be caught up from this - it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome, they are crowned with incorruption.” (Against Heresies Book 5). Far from teaching that the righteous will be caught up before the tribulation, as Andrew claimed, Irenaeus describes the tribulation as “the last contest” they will face and, having overcome, they will then be caught up and “crowned with incorruption.” Then we were presented with the old argument from silence: “The Church is not mentioned in Revelation after chapter three, so it must have been ‘raptured’ before the tribulation begins.” What Andrew means is that the Greek word ‘ekklesia’ (church) does not occur in Revelation 4 to 18, but neither does it occur in several N.T. letters. Does that mean the Church was not here when those letters were written? In fact, Revelation 4 to 18 includes several references to faithful, courageous followers of Jesus, testifying, suffering and dying for him. If believers are here, the Church is here. Q.E.D.! Like other pre-tribulationists, Andrew tries to circumvent this difficulty by saying that the 144,000 Jews of Revelation 7 become Messianic believers; are “anointed by the Holy Spirit,” and become an army of evangelists, who go out and win vast numbers of other Jews and Gentiles to faith in Jesus. But where is any of that in Scripture? Nowhere! Adding “to the words of this prophecy” has dire consequences! (Rev.22:18). All John says is that the 144,000 Jews (symbolizing all Israel), are sealed by an angel, not by the Holy Spirit as believers in Jesus are (Eph.1:13). Then Andrew claimed that ‘the Restrainer,’ of 2 Thess.2, is the Holy Spirit working through the Church, and both must be removed before the Man of Sin can arise. Hence, we are to conclude that all that highly successful evangelism takes place by human effort alone, with little if any help from the Holy Spirit! Andrew called these converts “tribulation saints,” as if they were somehow different from other saints, saying “they are not the Church as the Apostles knew it.” (Meaning what?) He then contradicted himself by saying that, on believing, they do become part of the Church, and will be instantly martyred and taken up to join the Church in heaven! But Jesus said four times that his followers will be “raised at the last day”? (John 6:39-54); and Paul taught that we will all “be changed in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet.” By definition, there can be only one “last day” and one “last trumpet,” which must be at the end of this present evil age, when Jesus returns to reign. As evidence for his view, Andrew appealed to Paul’s statement: “we are not appointed to wrath,” but why assume the tribulation is the only time God pours out his wrath? Many times, in the O.T., we read that God poured out his wrath both on Israel, when they broke the covenant, and on their enemies. Paul wrote, “The wrath of God IS being revealed against all the godlessness … etc.,” and that was in the first century A.D. (Rom.1:18ff). Sadly, when God has to bring judgment, the righteous often suffer along with the wicked. Given the overwhelming evidence that the Church will remain on earth until Jesus returns, the wrath from which we are rescued must surely be the wrath of the final judgment. Andrew also said that texts such as Romans 8:23, Philippians 3:20, Titus 2:13 and 1 John 3:2 refer to a pre-trib ‘rapture,’ but they are simply references to Jesus’ return. As for his claim that Isaiah 43:5-7 is about the ‘rapture’, words almost fail me! It is clearly God’s promise to Israel - that he will re-gather them from the diaspora and restore them to their ancient homeland. It's nothing to do with N.T. saints being caught up to meet Jesus in the air, but even if it were, it doesn’t mention the timing, so proves nothing! In summary, Andrew did not present any convincing scriptural evidence for a pre-tribulation ‘rapture’ of the Church. Please see https://youtu.be/wGuxS-GDhMU (video) or https://prophecytoday.uk/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=2478:enduring-to-the-end&Itemid=187 (article)

The Rapture Question - No.2

The second in a series of different speakers giving varying views on end-time events.